tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139464357237074361.post5097381166847703292..comments2023-11-13T16:30:40.096+13:00Comments on Editing the Herald: Dear HoneJameshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12661495023149576052noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139464357237074361.post-90578368759223373442009-11-17T11:18:06.460+13:002009-11-17T11:18:06.460+13:00Too late, you're as bad as "Your Views&qu...Too late, you're as bad as "Your Views" now ;)<br /><br />Seriously, I really preferred the non-hostile, non-partisan ETH that just took the piss out of the Herald... nobody needs another political blog.Kim Shepherdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09809809522989868772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139464357237074361.post-72111949332506841092009-11-16T12:38:49.847+13:002009-11-16T12:38:49.847+13:00Maybe we can leave this here and see how it develo...Maybe we can leave this here and see how it develops. <br /><br />It may turn out that I was wrong about my prediction that little would happen because there was really no significant pressure on the Maori Party. That's fine - I don't claim to make accurate predictions. <br /><br />However, it also seems that this has less to do with the reaction to the incident and more to do with internal wrangling within the party.<br /><br />Anyway, this would be where I would lock the comment thread if I knew how.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12661495023149576052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139464357237074361.post-57756187545004820772009-11-16T00:05:42.300+13:002009-11-16T00:05:42.300+13:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139464357237074361.post-65605503612743070552009-11-15T21:05:44.188+13:002009-11-15T21:05:44.188+13:00Done. Hopefully next time (odds are there will be...Done. Hopefully next time (odds are there will be a next time) we can all keep it civil, because one thing I am sure we agree on is that this is a very interesting subject that is worthwhile of discussion.<br /><br />And for what its worth, I have an angry writing style, which has been honed on a US based forum where if you dont insult or make your point in a strong, simple, and somewhat confrontational fashion, you dont get heard.JP Rockshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11395123373524008060noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139464357237074361.post-21220608823480092812009-11-15T10:30:04.635+13:002009-11-15T10:30:04.635+13:00Anon, get stuffed. Monk, I don't actually care...Anon, get stuffed. Monk, I don't actually care about double H and your contextualisation of my approach is misleading and untrue. I don't think and never said anyone was racist (except Michael Laws). Also, you don't get to tell me when to leave something alone, especially when you're the one who instigated dialogue with me, but I will agree with you that this is no longer constructive. Perhaps it was more a matter of talking past each other than anything. <br />JP, I agree. Things have gotten too heated. I understand what you are saying, and agree with the plain 'yes' or 'no' logic you put forward, but merely disagree with how that articulates with indigenous rights. I had a problem with only one thing you said at the start, but that's just my opinion and I don't want to argue the point any longer. Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on some of the finer points.Edwardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14683699167638870283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139464357237074361.post-50297264452610448122009-11-14T22:50:08.479+13:002009-11-14T22:50:08.479+13:00Damn, things got heated here while I was away. Pr...Damn, things got heated here while I was away. Probably a bit too heated for any of us to get back on course here. I'm not going to start it back up, but I will just finish it off by clarifying my position. I acknowledge that maori generally do not have it as good as pakeha people. If you are 25 year old maori man, you are more likely to have a criminal record, to have had a child out of wedlock and at a young age, to have a low paying menial job, and to have a lower level of education than a 25 year old pakeha man. This is undeniable. However, how would the quality of this 25 year old maori man's life compare to a 25 year old maori man who was living in a hypothetical Aotearoa which had never been settled by significant numbers of pakeha? One can only assume that it would be similar to that of a 25 year old fijian, tongan, samoan, niuean, tokelauan, vanuatan or new guinean, all living on their native islands. I would suggest that, regardless of how he stacks up against the 25 yeard old pakeha, the 25 year old maori living in Noo Zilland has it better. <br />If that makes me ethoncentric, then so be it.<br /><br />Oh, and go the All Whi... Um, go the NZ Football Team! World Cup Baby!JP Rockshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11395123373524008060noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139464357237074361.post-62250992974271012622009-11-14T16:08:49.603+13:002009-11-14T16:08:49.603+13:00Whereas you are a fool, Edward. You have inferred ...Whereas you are a fool, Edward. You have inferred far worse in me than I of you. Like anonymous says, leave it. <br /><br />Double H is being kicked from his party very slowly and very painfully. Not because of white man's guilt or disgust or superiority, but because his party believe his actions and his views inappropriate.<br /><br />I never, ever brought up any of the wider issues you seem to ascribe to the whole affair. That is why, in this context, I don't give a shit. <br /><br />I never realised we were in a debate. Your side was more 'I will throw my preconceptions at you, ascribe my values to the issue, misquote you and infer racism and you had better agree'.<br /><br />Now leave it alone.Monknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139464357237074361.post-37002375102393964742009-11-14T15:57:48.136+13:002009-11-14T15:57:48.136+13:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139464357237074361.post-43496323811818253212009-11-14T12:50:26.595+13:002009-11-14T12:50:26.595+13:00At least we can pretend to be ONE PEOPLE!At least we can pretend to be ONE PEOPLE!Taawhananoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139464357237074361.post-37322001093492886552009-11-14T10:31:50.190+13:002009-11-14T10:31:50.190+13:00is you saying i is a racialist lolis you saying i is a racialist lolMonknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139464357237074361.post-18829507810469291042009-11-14T10:00:10.041+13:002009-11-14T10:00:10.041+13:00Who cares how I spell hypocrite or hypocrisy Monk....Who cares how I spell hypocrite or hypocrisy Monk. What's such an ad hominem got to do with my argument. Nothing really does it? But I suppose you pointing out spelling mistakes is supposed to add weight to your argument? What a joke and what a pathetic debating tactic. Besides, you haven't even addressed the point that you were in fact doing exactly what you accused me of doing - it's there for all to see. So you are a hypocrite. <br /><br />As for the sum of my argument, no, my point was that while I agree with you that he said something really quite stupid, I just think the reaction has been a bit over the top, especially considering "Maori dole bludger" is a phrase passed around the national rhetoric like a football. This doesn't justify Hone's statement, but I just think that it contextualises it. And I know what your doing: trying to polarise me into one extreme side of the debate while failing to acknowledge that I agree with many points both you and JP made, just not all of them. <br />I suppose when you keep tripping up over your own ego though it might be a bit hard to actually contextualise your oponents argument, so in the rush to prove how smart you are you box them in to a position you wish to vilify. Pretty lame and dishonest tactic. <br /><br />As for your last point, well, need I say more. You don't give a shit about inequality by your own words. I think now we've highlighted why you've jumped all over my comments. After all, you're right, it was my point, so why then did you instigate a debate with me about a point you don't give a shit about? I wasn't the one who commented on you was I? It seems in my opinion it's because I didn't automatically get on the 'I hate Hone' bandwagon with you and instead dared to suggest that the sacrosanct status of white NZ'ers might not be so wonderful after all. In short, it seems I stepped on your apparently delicate little white toes. How dare I say anything negative about Pakeha! The sheer audacity of me! <br /><br />I suggest you sit down, take a breath, let some of the air out of that ego of yours, and get over it.Edwardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14683699167638870283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139464357237074361.post-19520157625565297652009-11-13T23:10:01.180+13:002009-11-13T23:10:01.180+13:00>>>> Can I just say I hate this argume...>>>> Can I just say I hate this argument? Whenever a white person complains they can't be racist anymore but brown or black people can, like it's this outrageous double standard, it just makes me want to slap my forehead with a history book. NO ONE can be racist, but please be aware there are lots of reasons why brown or black people might be given a bit more slack about being angry than white people. We're not equal.<br /><br />WTF???? What makes you so sure anonymous is white? <br /><br />So no one can be racist but it's okay to be racist if you're black because those white motherfuckers started it? What kind of logic is that?Monknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139464357237074361.post-33392620986564476982009-11-13T23:03:29.552+13:002009-11-13T23:03:29.552+13:00>>>> As for you claiming I said "...>>>> As for you claiming I said "a white politician recently called someone a Maori dole bludger", well, perhaps you need to read what I said ... you may look like a bit of a hypercrite. <br /><br />Hypercrite. Heh.<br /><br />>>>> Here's what I actually said:<br />"After all, if Pakeha sentiment in the media can involve phrases like "Dole bludging Maori's" then it's a bit tick-for-tack isn't it?"<br />Can you please tell me where I use the word 'politician'? No? Oh, yeah, that's because I specifically said 'Media'. Oh, can you feel that hypocricy!? <br /><br />You're not having much luck with the word hypocrisy, are you? <br /><br />Riiiiight. So let's look at the actual sum of your argument:<br /><br />Hariwiaracist is justified in calling the white majority of his country motherfuckers because of your perceived anti-Maori bias in the undefined 'media'.<br /><br />>>>> In addition, neither you nor JP are addressing the point - that there does exist inequality between Maori and Pakeha in NZ.<br /><br />That's not my point, that's your point. Address it with someone who gives a shit. <br /><br />Thanks.Monknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139464357237074361.post-66758931325318736422009-11-13T10:54:39.828+13:002009-11-13T10:54:39.828+13:00"Anonymous said...
If I sent an email with th..."Anonymous said...<br />If I sent an email with that language I would be getting sacked."<br /><br />Can I just say I hate this argument? Whenever a white person complains they can't be racist anymore but brown or black people can, like it's this outrageous double standard, it just makes me want to slap my forehead with a history book. NO ONE can be racist, but please be aware there are lots of reasons why brown or black people might be given a bit more slack about being angry than white people. We're not equal.<br /><br />Also, as long as people like Micheal Laws has a job (thanks to the Sunday Star-Times, Radio Live and the people of Whanganui), I don't even think it's true. Prominent white people say racist shit all the time - it just may not be as unsubtle as Harawira's.James Wnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139464357237074361.post-61127497338440542522009-11-13T10:43:31.662+13:002009-11-13T10:43:31.662+13:00@ Mel
"I have to clarify, because I think yo...@ Mel<br /><br />"I have to clarify, because I think you're confused. Buddy Mikaere's email asked 'Gotta ask the question... who paid for your wife?' That's all he said."<br /><br />You're correct, sorry. It was in Mikere's subsequent email where he wrote:<br /><br />"... you're no better than that w***er Rodney Hide and the white mofos you complain about" <br /><br />But you're right, it was after Harawira used the words.James Wnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139464357237074361.post-21913462019185881042009-11-13T10:31:33.226+13:002009-11-13T10:31:33.226+13:00Thanks to 'The' for contextualising what I...Thanks to 'The' for contextualising what I said :)<br /><br />Monk,<br /><br />I was paraphrasing the substantive content of JP's sentiment. As 'The' says, it was implied in one of his earlier posts. Of course I suppose you can call me out on a technicality of not quoting what he said word for word, but it doesn't change the underlying content of what he said. If it makes you feel better, here's the quote, word for word:<br />"I, in turn, am consistently confused by native NZers' lack of understanding of the benefits that white/settlers have provided to this country since settlement. "<br /><br />As for you claiming I said "a white politician recently called someone a Maori dole bludger", well, perhaps you need to read what I said before putting words in my mouth as you accuse me of doing, otherwise you may look like a bit of a hypercrite. Here's what I actually said:<br />"After all, if Pakeha sentiment in the media can involve phrases like "Dole bludging Maori's" then it's a bit tick-for-tack isn't it?"<br />Can you please tell me where I use the word 'politician'? No? Oh, yeah, that's because I specifically said 'Media'. Oh, can you feel that hypocricy!? <br /><br />So, no, I actually am not 'inventing stuff to argue my point', that would be you. In addition, neither you nor JP are addressing the point - that there does exist inequality between Maori and Pakeha in NZ. I wasn't confrontational in my posts, I stated what I thought, which was simply that you can't sweep that under the rug simply because Maori can drive cars thanks to colonialism. As I said, I've nothing against JP and I've nothing against you, but such reactions are uncalled for. After all, what are you arguing with me about, that I think one thing JP said is ethnocentric or that I think people have overreacted a bit to Hone's rubbish (I agree he said stupid things)? <br /><br />Oh, and last but not least, just for JP, here's a social fact definition, which according to him is an oxymoron:<br /><br />"In sociology, social facts are the values, cultural norms, and social structures external to the individual. For French sociologist Émile Durkheim, sociology was 'the science of social facts'. The task of the sociologist, then, was to search for correlations between social facts to reveal laws. Having discovered the laws of social structure, it is posited that the sociologist is then able to determine whether any given society is 'healthy' or 'pathological' and prescribe appropriate remedies. Durkheim made two main distinctions between social facts--material and nonmaterial social facts. Material social facts, he explained, has to do with the physical social structures which exerts influence on the individual. It is something that can be touched emerging because of society's shared belief that it serves a purpose. Nonmaterial social facts are the values, norms and other conceptually held beliefs."Edwardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14683699167638870283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139464357237074361.post-74936087538267174362009-11-13T04:29:42.810+13:002009-11-13T04:29:42.810+13:00re: "Noone said that"
JP_Rocks implied ...re: "Noone said that"<br /><br />JP_Rocks implied it above. It's a common view held in New Zealander (not sure if you've heard of the place,) that Maori shouldn't complain because of this advantage we all have but they have less of.<br /><br />It would be a great step if a Maori person could walk down the street in 2009 without getting looked at "like that."Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10224266265668836173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139464357237074361.post-56866551369738235152009-11-12T23:33:44.300+13:002009-11-12T23:33:44.300+13:00>>> My point was that you saying "Ma...>>> My point was that you saying "Maori should be thankfull white man came and showed them how to be civilised/technologically advanced/whatever" is a patronising and ethnocentric view to hold. <br /><br />No one said that. Nor has a white politician recently called someone a Maori dole bludger, which you suggested happens all the time.<br /><br />You're inventing stuff to argue your point. That's not a great system.Monknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139464357237074361.post-59586149684038709282009-11-12T23:17:58.283+13:002009-11-12T23:17:58.283+13:00JP, Auckland of course. But what's your point?...JP, Auckland of course. But what's your point? Maori can't complain because NZ has better services than those other places? Well, I guess you've put me in my place. All is equal in NZ, we're all 'one people', and Maori aren't overwhelmingly overrepresented in the lower socio-economic demographic. Congats, you've solved the nations woes by setting up a straw man argument. What's next, Maori weren't subjected to harsh treatment by European settlers because the Australian Aboriginals got it "far worse"? <br />And how is sociological fact an oxymoron? The trends in demographics studied by sociologists are false? Oh, of course they are, because all is equal in NZ, right? <br />My point was that you saying "Maori should be thankfull white man came and showed them how to be civilised/technologically advanced/whatever" is a patronising and ethnocentric view to hold. So, you can disagree with me all you like, but it won't change the fact that such sentiments are indeed ethnocentric. Forcing your supposed opponents into saying 'Auckland' means nothing other than that you are incapable of reasonable discussion. Oh, and the difference is "a lot more white people". Does that satisfy that race-based ego of yours? <br />And drop the chip on your shoulder buddy, I wasn't trying to insult you and I certainly wasn't being confrontational.Edwardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14683699167638870283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139464357237074361.post-9766102825537030822009-11-12T20:34:21.251+13:002009-11-12T20:34:21.251+13:00Well the party considers him finished. So what do ...Well the party considers him finished. So what do you say now?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139464357237074361.post-35324439047076734062009-11-12T16:54:18.188+13:002009-11-12T16:54:18.188+13:00No, Eddie, I get your point. I get it, and I disa...No, Eddie, I get your point. I get it, and I disagree with it. And I dont expect you to admit to agreeing with me, but let pose this series of questions to you. <br /><br />1) You have a life threatening condition that requires surgical intervention. You can choose to have this operation either in Apia, Nani, Nukualofa or Auckland. Where do you choose?<br />2) You have three children who are about to start school. You can choose an average school (measured against other schools in the city) in either Apia, Nadi, Nukualofa or Auckland. Where do you choose?<br />3) You are a blue collar worker, and can choose to work in either Apia, Nadi, Nukualofa or Auckland. Where do you choose?<br /><br />If any of your answers was anything other than Auckland, you are either a liar, a fool, or both. And what is the main difference between Auckland and the three other cities?<br /><br />As a side note, the term 'sociological fact' can only be an oxymoron.JP Rockshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11395123373524008060noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139464357237074361.post-62385710900700165272009-11-12T16:14:19.992+13:002009-11-12T16:14:19.992+13:00fair enough. like I said, I don't really care,...fair enough. like I said, I don't really care, I just think it's a non story / being the subject of overreaction. But that's just my own opinion. Scream for blood all you like :)Edwardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14683699167638870283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139464357237074361.post-67649720653932204742009-11-12T15:44:13.967+13:002009-11-12T15:44:13.967+13:00sorry, but when was the last time a white politici...sorry, but when was the last time a white politicians referred to 'dole bludging Maori'?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139464357237074361.post-22324350124106322512009-11-12T14:33:04.288+13:002009-11-12T14:33:04.288+13:00Monk,
Not sure if the first part of your post wa...Monk, <br /><br />Not sure if the first part of your post was directed at me, but I was merely questioning the sentiment that JP put forward, which is pretty much that indigenous peoples shouldn't complain because they can benefit from the wonders of European culture. I just think such statements are a little ethnocentric. I'm not trying to knock JP, I just don't think that's an ethical perspective and that it ignores ongoing social issues which need to be addressed. <br /><br />As for Hone, you're right. He said some stupid remarks which have upset some people. I just find him funny is all. And I find him funny because he's a spectacle who's managed to upset people over pretty much nothing. Granted it's inflammatory language, but it's not like it directly adversly affected people's lives like the media is making out. I didn't feel insulted or ashamed. I don't think it's one option or the other. It simply didn't affect me because it wasn't directed at me, so why is everyone else making a fuss? After all, if Pakeha sentiment in the media can involve phrases like "Dole bludging Maori's" then it's a bit tick-for-tack isn't it? I dunno, I don't really care either way. People will scream for blood over anything trivial while ignoring the Rodney Hides of this world's attempt to privitise water.Edwardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14683699167638870283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9139464357237074361.post-72185199012074905512009-11-12T12:46:20.552+13:002009-11-12T12:46:20.552+13:00MAY be valid. Ahem.MAY be valid. Ahem.Melnoreply@blogger.com